How Should Chrisitans Think about Worship? A Conversation with Ayanda Khumalo, Part 1

The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful, theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now, on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everybody. Welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I am excited today to have an old friend on the show. Ayunda Kamalo is a Christian recording artist and author, a radio host, and a worship pastor. He's got a lot going on. I love that. But we actually met when I was at, well, we were both at Moody Bible Institute. And so I've kept up with him on Instagram. He's got a new album that's coming out or has been released. He'll talk a little bit about that. And you should really check out his children's books. He's got a one I know is published and you got another one coming out. So those are super cool. Ayunda, welcome to the program, man. How you doing? Brother, I'm, I'm doing great. Apart from it's snowing outside. But you know, it's, I'll say this, there's, you know, a lot of people have a lot of things to say when Christ comes again. A lot of questions. And I just have one question is, You took me from the sunny continent of Africa to the Midwest. Why? That's the only question I'll have. Not about theology, not about salvation. None of that deep theological stuff about faith. Just, that's the only question I'll have. No, I'm good. I'm good. Dude, my, my wife and I've had that conversation so many times because, you know, we've moved nine times in our marriage and we just keep moving within the Midwest. And we're like, what is the matter with us? Why can't we move somewhere like where it's nice weather, just for a while, at least. I mean, it's kind of nice to see the seasons change, but, uh, you know, Hawaii sounds good. Oh, I, I received that word. I received. Well, dude, tell us a little bit about what's, what you got going on. I, I, um, so your, your new album is out or coming out. It's, it came out January 26th. Came out January 26th. Very cool. It's, so there's a couple of things that have been happening. The album got released and it's been a journey, um, in terms of where it came from, the, just the origin story of that journey and recording the album and the various people were part of it. Amazing group of people I got to work with to put it together and to share the music. Um, working on the, as you mentioned earlier, um, second kid's book. It's pretty much the trilogy. We're putting the whole trilogy together. Um, and it's just the adventures of Aya, this little boy who's, um, I won't give too much away, um, but if people have read the first book, it sets up the next two books. And we're just putting this whole thing together as a, just a trilogy, three-part, illustrated kid's book. And we're looking at the end of, um, 2024, um, spring 2025. And so we're excited about the creative team is really excited about putting that whole thing together. It's been going well. We've done the second chapter, done and dusted. We're editing the manuscript for the third chapter right now. And illustrations are the next phase. So that's been good. Um, and, and I can officially say it now. Last week, signed a contract. Renewed a show contract with Moody Radio's Urban Praise, uh, channel. So that will be a, um, three-hour show, 4 a.m. to 7 a.m. Central Standard Time in the USA. So, they got me busy. I'm busy. And then, um, I get the privilege of serving the local body, um, as well as a worship pastor here in Troy, Michigan. So, and a mutual friend, um, he's a senior pastor, Chris Brooks. Yeah, Chris Brooks. My boss, but an amazing brother in the faith. Um, and that's, that's been it. That's, that's been my life the past couple of months. Very cool, man. Well, talk to us about, you know, when you think about pulling together an album like you did, what's that process like? I mean, how, how did this go? So, I think I'll just start for me, because everyone typically has their own, there are a couple of three or four ways to do it. But for me, one of the biggest things was there's always a causation to what happened. And for me, the origin story was 2020, 2019, um, 2019, I lost my father at the end of the year. And the world didn't just shut down. And halfway across, I'm halfway across the world from family. So there was a journey of grief and processing. And a lot of the questions I was asking myself is, where do I place my trust? And at some point in that processing, the Lord just dropped that question through various people and in his word, who do you place your trust in? And automatically I said, no, I place my trust in Jesus. And as, as a believer, that's, you know, sometimes so cliche, you know, the, the Christian words to say, um, but it was actually that journey of, you know, I actually placed my trust in Jesus, the, the realization spiritually, internally, mentally, and emotionally. And once I landed there, it was this journey of, you know, mental health, healing, counseling, emotional health. Um, and at that point, um, I moved, I was in Chicago at that time. I moved to Troy, Michigan, um, to the role that I'm currently in serving in the local body, local church. And I just started writing, um, just concepts of, hey, the next project, um, I'm taking inspiration from different friends and, and people. And this is, this is the sound I'm looking for. I'm looking for a global sound, a fusion sound. And I kid you not. It was around April, 2022. We started, I started writing, um, the project. I reached out to a good brother who's a co-producer, Ross Fishburne. He's produced a lot of projects. He's worked with Shane and Shane and Phil Wickham. And I just said to him, hey, um, I want to work on a three song EP. Extended play. That's what EP stands for. Just three songs. Keep it short and simple. Um, and I, I think I have the first song and I'll take me, take me a season, but not too long. So our goal was October, 2022 to release this project. Okay. But lo and behold, got it out of the plan. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed with inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty? More families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free Retirement Defense Guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. So I wrote the first song. It sat for like a day and then I just hit this creative buzz. We wrote eight songs in the space of 48 hours. Wow. And I was primarily, I typically write the melody and the lyrics and then the rest of the team fleshes it out. But I was literally at two o'clock in the morning, like I'm spending time in the word, the lyrics are just rolling. I'll go to sleep. I'm voice memoing an idea and a melody. I go to sleep. Two hours later, I'm waking up again. It's just rolling out, snowballing. So we have eight songs done in terms of the idea. I sent everything across and he initially is like, well, I thought we're going to do three songs. And then I said, well, let's just do five and we can put three on the shelf. So we brought in another co-producer. His name is Brandon B. Based in Washington state on the West Coast and amazing, just amazing how both, both the believers, both strong in the faith, both creative out of the box type of producers. And he started in terms of some laying down the basic work for the project. And then he had to move houses. So he had to shift studio. So the October deadline was then shifted to May 2023. Okay. So we're like, okay, we, I would rather have a project that's deep, done professionally of the highest standard. We'll take our time. We'll take our time. Right, right. So come January, 2023, we're behind on the deadline in terms of the whole project. We've got five potentially we've started to work on. And then I just, the Lord just nudging me. I need you to pull that.

Put them in the project. And at the same time, I'm an independent artist, so I'm looking at numbers, budget, marketing. I'm going to bring all these musicians and how's this whole thing coming together? And I'm like, Lord, I don't have the funding to be doing an album with eight songs. And God's like, well, it's my project, it's for my people. You just stay in your lane and do what you've called to do, and I'll take care of the rest. And my biggest, one of the things, my philosophy behind all the projects that I record is, it's all for the work of one person coming to know Jesus and their faith. So all the work, the investment, the time, the relationships, it's worth that one person. The second thing is, we wanted to create music that a non-believer would want to play. They may not agree with the gospel message, but they love the music. And then we wanted it to be Christocentric, theologically sound, biblically based. So all those factors were always in everything. And the team bought into that. So May, March, we're rolling. We know the deadlines. We're missing the deadline. And then I said, okay, let's bump it a couple months. Let's do October because we were just in a creative zone. We had pulled in a couple of other people, amazing people. My good friend, who's my music director when I'm on the road, Austin Dedman, he was on, he just finished being on the Hamilton tour as an associate conductor, assistant conductor. So in between shows in the day, he's recording piano and pads and all the key stuff. Ross had tracked. He was on a family trip before he moved. So at least two of the songs, he was recording drums in his RV, which is the type of stuff that never happens. Right. He's also recording bass. Brandon is playing electric guitar. And we've got a couple of people we're just pulling into this project. So we get to July. We've recorded eight songs. We throw in another. And at the same time, I'm writing another song. And I was like, hey, we're going to factor this in. So we record all nine. We're pretty much at the back end. And I'm sitting there and I was like, there's a song that is missing, that just kind of pulls this whole thing together. So lo and behold, I've been, I like to read hymns. I like to look at the lyrics and read about the heart behind why hymns were written, read about who the writer is and the experience and the story behind origin story behind the hymn. And Joyful Joyful, We Adore Thee, pops up. And I was like, I love this. And lately, we just haven't been writing or releasing songs about joy. It's a lot of it's like ballads, 6-8, mellow, with some anthems, big, bigness to it, but there's nothing upbeat and joyful. So I'm looking at the lyrics of Joyful Joyful, and I was like, I want to write a refrain, a chorus that responds to this whole thing. I write a refrain, and I'm playing it. And I was like, yes, this is the song. I send the idea to Ross, and I'm like, hey guys, I'm going to throw this curveball in. It's different. It's funk based with some live brass, some Stevie Wonder key stuff. And they're like, we love it. Let's throw it in. And it ended up being like the last song of this whole project. Everything else is recorded. And it was just amazing. We were able to pull in a guy who plays brass, who actually played brass for the Coldplay X&Y album. And some guys in England. So it was just top professionals who came to the table and made it come alive creatively the way I was, just beyond what I was even thinking or imagining. And it just encompasses what happened in 2019 when God was asking that question, and the songs in the project answer that question. And then it's now an encouragement to everyone else out there that our hope, our faith, our trust, our lives, our hearts are in Jesus. And so January 26th, it came out and I'm excited. I'm very, very excited about it. And where can folks get it, man? iTunes, that kind of stuff, Spotify, all the normal places. Yeah, all digital platforms. And the project is called In Jesus. I under Kamalo. And yeah, it's all available there. Any place that people get the music. I'm so old enough to remember going to get like singles tapes at Walmart or something. So yeah, no physical CDs for this one. Just all digital, right? It's yeah. And that's well, that's what got to make life easier, right? Most people. Yes. And most, I think some people don't even know what a CD is or have a player at home. So it's just like I was explaining to my daughters, they're getting ready to drive and we're driving down the road. And I said, you know, this whole texting and driving thing, I understand it's a distraction. But if you saw the way I drove and the things I did when I was trying to switch CDs and, you know, mess around. Like they should have had rules about that back then. And physical maps and navigation systems. Exactly. Yeah, you're juggling your map. You're getting a CD out. You're sticking to the player. Like, yeah, you got your corded, you know, your corded cell phone. Yeah, it was a rough life back in the day. Hey, like, so I think it's cool, like the creative process, the origin story is fantastic, man. And I mean, I think it's awesome that you took the time with it. Like your deadline didn't drive the end of this. I think that's like, it sort of speaks to what you're trying to do. You're not just trying to shove out work. You're really trying to respond to what God is telling you to do. And so I guess my question is, how do you think, because, you know, you obviously put out the album. You lead worship at various places. How do you actually think about leading people into worship? And is it different when you're recording versus when you're live on stage? Like, talk a little bit about that. Oh, that's a really great question. I think I see them just in two spaces. Yeah. And here's why. Because the end goal is to provide a moment or a space. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free Retirement Defense Guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. People to engage with God. The beauty with anything recorded, you can continually kind of replay it over and over and over again for whatever time length of period, a couple of years, couple of months, couple of days, couple of weeks. Those are the benefits to anything recorded. But my approach is, in the same way I do live congregational context and studio, is I approach it the same way. My pattern is I'm always approaching like a producer. What do I want this to sound like? What's the message I'm trying to communicate? And every piece of the process and the parts that play into the process have to contribute to that message. It's the same approach in the studio. Everything has a role to play. Every note, there's a reason why we're playing that note. There's a reason why we're singing that note in the melody. There's a reason why they were playing the hit called the snare, the downbeat here. We're hitting the crash here. The different parts, the keys, the guitars, the bass, the drums, percussion, brass. We have to be intentional about where we place that because at the end of the day, the music has to support the message. People need to feel the message of the lyrics as well. And that's good music. When I lead live, exact same thing. I think like a producer when I'm at a rehearsal and I'm playing with a band or my band. And we'll go into the weeds. We'll go into, hey, why are you playing that? Why did you play that note? What's the intention? Don't just throw something out there just for the sake. Think through everything you're doing. Listen to everyone else because once we're a cohesive team, we no longer are a, we don't become a distraction. We become a bed that the lyrics and the message can actually land on top of.

And it then carries the message a lot easier. We all know it when we go to a concert or worship and there's something audibly that doesn't sound right. We typically cringe or lean our heads and that becomes more of a distraction. In the same way, we approach it live leading congregation worship in the same way we try to do it in the studio. Studio, there's a little bit more grace because you can cut, edit, redo over and over again to get to make it perfect. But live, there isn't as much grace, but the goal is we rehearse as if we're going to be recording it live so that in that moment, we're doing it with excellence. There's nothing perfect in this world apart from Jesus, but we know we're doing with a heart and an attitude and a perspective of, we're gonna do our best. We're gonna rehearse. We're gonna practice on our own as a team so when we do it, it's done with the best energy, passion, and desire. So let me throw this one at you then because it's something that I was, again, I was talking to my girls about. They're taking lit right now. And I was kind of trying to help them understand how to go about reading literature well and kind of what I think is good literature. And part of what I think is good literature, especially fiction, I wasn't thinking nonfiction, but fictional literature. I said, I think fictional literature does its best work when it doesn't tell you exactly what it's trying to say, right? The example I used is not a great example, but like there's a difference. I'm a big Stallone fan, so I love the Rambo and the Rocky movies, but at the end of Rambo, his fourth movie, right, when he came back and did it when he's old, the ends with him just walking up his driveway to home. No words, no anything, you know, no over speech or anything like that. But at the end of the last one, Rambo Last Blood, they actually have a voiceover. He's sitting on his porch in his rocking chair and like they do the voiceover. And I was like, it kind of ruins the end for me. Right, because it's just too on the nose. Like now I know exactly what they wanted me to know and there's no mystery left for me to figure out. Okay, so all that to say this, all right? When you're putting together, you know, obviously in a live worship setting, you can talk, right? You can talk in between songs. You can kind of give people little hints as to where you're going, maybe part of what that message is. On an album, you know, even if you did it, there's no guarantee. I mean, it's like writing a book, right? You know, the first chapter should be like the second chapter, the second, you know, they should lead into one another, but there's no guarantee people are actually gonna read that. No. Do you think of it, like when you're putting the album together, you know, obviously you've got some sort of a thematic approach and a broad message you wanna pull together. How do you think about that when you sort of have to know that people are gonna experience that album in one shot pieces a lot of the time versus just sitting down and listening to the whole thing? Do you plan for both? You know what I'm saying? That's a great question. Yes, yes, I do, but not, I don't hold strongly to that because each song has to stand alone, but each song has its own particular message. It's like the subcategory within the main theme. And it can go down the rabbit hole in that area. So you listen to, and that's why I would always encourage people, and I know it's work, but listen to the whole album. Right. And for any artist worth their salt, and then when they put together an album, a really good musician, listen to the whole album because that's when you get the full picture. When you listen to one song, you just get probably a quarter or a third or a 10th of this picture that they're trying to, this canvas that they've been painting. But you do factor it in when you put the project together. And for me, that's what I do do. I always look at it, okay, there's always that thesis at the front end and that is something that puts the bow on it right at the end. And the way we call it sequencing in the music industry is if you notice it, it's typically the best songs are on the front end. The ones that are like, man, the big hits, the songs that people typically, that's what they listen to. Yeah. And they know that there are people who won't listen to the whole album, but their hope is if you get hooked on the first three or four songs and you're on a roll, you'll continue to listen to the whole album. Those carry through. So some secrets for your listeners and those watching. I'm in it, so I'll say it and you'll find it on Google or on the internet. We typically release one or two singles before we release an album. Okay. And those two singles or single typically are on the front end of the album. So we're giving you a taste of what's to come. We play that song over the course of two to three months. We get you excited. You're like, wow, I love this song. So when we release the album, the first thing you're looking for is that single. And typically it's at the top, number one, number two, number three, and maybe number four. Yeah. And at that point, we've got you, oh, okay, it's number three. I need to listen. Let me listen to number one and number two to get to the song that I like from this artist. And at that point, if you're liking the first two, we've got you in. And the attention span of today is, it's gone from a couple of minutes to like, they always say now, the first 10 seconds of a song is make or break. And the first 10 seconds of a song of an album, number one, is make or break apart from that single they released. If we don't get people, and that's just industry right now and science. If I don't get the listener in the first 10 seconds, I've lost them. You don't get them. The likelihood of them ever listening to the rest of the project, it may be circumstantial because of a friend. We're like, man, you should have listened to this song. So that's the science. I don't, in as much as it is the, you know, the formula, I don't hold as much so strongly to that because as I said earlier, whatever God chooses to do with the project and he is doing it, doing stuff through it, he'll put it in front of the right people. Hey everyone, hopefully you enjoyed this first portion of the interview with Ayunda. And please join us back tomorrow for tomorrow's episode where we'll continue the interview with Ayunda, continue talking a little bit about music and the process that he goes through to help lead God's people through worship, as well as discussing a little bit about his children's book, the one that he already published, as well as one that he has forthcoming. So join us again tomorrow on Thinking Christian. I just wanna take a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you'll find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more. The Historical Jesus Podcast is the sweeping saga of the life and times of Galilean Jesus of Nazareth, as well as the faith, religion, and church founded to honor and disseminate his acts and teachings. Join me, Mark Vinette, on this fascinating journey through time exploring the many great works of Christian theology, literature, architecture, music, and art inspired by the words and deeds of Jesus Christ.