A Redemption Story: Tony Cardello's Testimony

The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now, on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey everyone, welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm Dr. James Spencer, and I'm joined today by Samuel G. Parkinson. He's the associate professor of theological studies at Gulf Theological Seminary in the United Arab Emirates. And he's also the author of several books, but the one we'll really be looking at today is To Gaze Upon God, The Beatific Vision and Doctrine Tradition and Practice. So Samuel, welcome. Thanks for being on the podcast, man. Yeah. Hey, James. Thanks for having me on. Absolutely. So this idea of, we'll just jump in, this idea of the beatific vision is interesting to me. I think when I was studying, I sort of came at it backwards. I was looking at conceptualizations of Sheol in the Old Testament and sort of the sum of the pictures that you get of Sheol in the Old Testament. You begin to see that there's this absence, a drawing away from God's presence that is viewed negatively, obviously. And then, of course, you have the temple stuff and all that kind of good stuff where you're enjoying God's presence. And so I've always been kind of interested in the beatific vision. I found your book really compelling. Why don't you, just because it's not usually normal language, I think, in Christian circles, let's just start out. What is the beatific vision? And then maybe give a little bit of insight into why you became interested in it. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, so the beatific vision, beatific just means happy. So when we're talking about the beatific vision, we're talking about that happy vision, the blessed hope of seeing God in heaven. So I like the way that you even kind of set that up with contrasting it to the lower regions of Sheol as decreasing life and vitality as sort of the opposite of that. So, yeah, I think the beatific vision, it really is, it's the polar opposite of that. It is the experience of plenitude, of fullness, the fullness of communion with God. And it's a biblical hope that is signaled to all throughout the Scriptures. You have as early as in Exodus 33 when Moses is asking Yahweh to see his glory. We know, I mean, Moses has had incredible experiences with Yahweh. He's already experienced Yahweh in Exodus 3 at the burning bush. But he's asking for more. And so we see that in Exodus 33 and 34. It's the thing that David pines after in Psalm 27 when he says, one thing have I asked of the Lord, that will I seek after, that I may dwell in the house of the Lord all the days of my life to gaze upon the beauty of the Lord and to inquire in his temple. It's striking that David, David is the one who's saying this. David didn't build the temple. The temple, the physical temple is not built until his son Solomon. So we know that David's not talking about the earthly temple when he's saying that he wants to dwell in the house of the Lord all the days of his life. He's talking about that heavenly temple. He's talking about the very presence of Yahweh himself. So it's in Exodus. It's in the Psalms. It's signaled to and talked about all throughout the New Testament as well. It's the thing that Paul is talking about in 1 Corinthians 13 when the perfect comes and we will know and see even as we are known and seen. It's the thing that John talks about in 1 John chapter 3 when he says that we will be like him because we shall see him as he is. And then, of course, Revelation 22 verses 4 and 5 talk about it explicitly. That God's name will be on our foreheads and we will see him. And so, yeah, it's this great biblical hope of all the roads of desire finding their intended telos, where they're supposed to be. So it's that classic prayer that Augustine says, thou has made us for thyself and our hearts are restless until they find their rest in thee. So the beatific vision is the experience of that and its fullest and consummate form in the eschaton, ultimately. And the way that I kind of got excited about this topic was during my dissertation. I wrote my dissertation on the beauty of Christ. And so it was aesthetic theology. And it was sort of asking multiple questions. The first question is, is beauty a divine attribute? And secondly, if it is, how is beauty revealed in the person and work of Jesus Christ? And then thirdly, if all of that is, you know, if it's true that beauty is a divine attribute and Jesus manifests divine beauty, then what does beauty have to do with conversion and specifically the relationship between regeneration and saving faith? And sort of towards the end, towards the conclusion of my dissertation, I had just a brief section of, you know, here are some theological implications in light of our research. And one of them was a brief section on the beatific vision. And so it was just a thread that I wanted to continue to pull on. And I shot the idea to IVP academic and they liked it. And so it sparked probably the most fruitful, the most personally enriching and rewarding research projects I've ever done over the course of a year writing this book on the beatific vision. That's fantastic, man. I you know, having read through it, I think one of the things that I really wanted to ask you was we talk a lot about our separation from God. We talk a lot about relationship with God. You hear those phrases and terms pretty popularly in Christianity, especially evangelical circles. But I don't get the impression that when people say those terms, they're really thinking the beatific vision. That this fuller sense that you're providing in the book is really behind these understandings. And so when you when you think about the beatific vision and you go back and you read something just even pretty foundational as Genesis 1, 1 through 3. Right. And you see the the original creation, God walking in the garden with Adam and Eve. Then you see the fall and the cherubim put in place to guard, you know, going back into the tree of life. What we're probably seeing is a distancing from God. Obviously, we're seeing a distancing from God. But there's also this element, I would think, of the beatific vision being blocked. That now this is where we want to get back to. We want to get back to that point where at least, and I say at least sort of, I guess, tongue in cheek, knowing that there are levels of this. But we want to get back to at least walking with God in the garden, you know, that kind of idea. So how did you, how do you navigate, even after writing the book, how do you navigate or how would you suggest navigating the popular phrases that are often in the ether of evangelicalism and helping people understand them from the perspective of the beatific vision? Yeah, well, could you give me some examples? Like what kind of popular phrases are you talking about? Sure. So like I remember going through, so when I was saved, you know, you go through the four spiritual laws, right? If you were like, I was saved through Campus Crusade for Christ. And so they'd walk you through the four spiritual laws. And one of those is, you know, all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Right. Now that's in Paul, right? That's a Bible verse. But it's often talked about in terms of that falling short, right? Feels like and separation, those kind of words, are almost talked about in terms of a standard we're trying to reach and missing, as opposed to a closeness and depth with God. We're truly falling short of that glory. In other words, we're not in that presence. Yeah. Yeah, I think I know what you're saying. Yeah, yeah. That makes sense. Good. Yeah, I think one of the, uh, one imbalance that, that can be sometimes unfairly charged against evangelicals, but sometimes it's pretty fair also is the idea that our conception of salvation is solely forensic. And that's because evangelicals have this really, we have this, um, you know, penal substitutionary atonement is very, very important for most conservative evangelicals. Yes. And I think it should be. I think it's a biblical doctrine. It absolutely should be there. Um, I affirm it, but it is also a means to a deeper end of communion with God. And, uh, so let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed with inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty. More families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary metals is a Christian owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver.

through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide, or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. We can slip into thinking in terms of salvation as if our biggest problem is a forensic guilt in the sight of God, and the biggest solution is to have the forgiveness of sins. But there's so much more to the gospel than that. We also, even on the forensic side, we need to have righteousness. We need to have an active righteous standing before God. But even that, so that's what we're just talking about justification there, that judicial category that's talking about our declaration on behalf of the imputed righteousness of Christ, his active and passive obedience, that we are no longer guilty, that we are now righteous. So that's all judicial categories of justification. But justification is a means to a greater end that, you know, you could say adoption, or you could say just communion with God, or you could say the beatific vision. And so I think that one of the maybe under-resourced ways of conceptualizing salvation is not just that we were guilty and are now counted as innocent, so that's glorious and that's part of it, but also that you could frame the gospel in this way, that the God who is infinite in the fullness and plentitude of his self-happiness creates us and then redeems us after the fall in order to incorporate us into his own infinite self-happiness. And this is portrayed in a number of ways. The Eastern, the Cappadocian fathers talked about this in terms of theosis, God becomes man so that man can become God. That makes evangelicals squeamish sometimes, but Paul talks about this too, that, well, first of all, Peter in 2 Peter talked about how we become partakers of the divine nature. Paul in Galatians 4 talks about how in the fullness of time, God sent forth his son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who are under the law. And the fruit of all of that is that he puts the spirit of his son into our hearts crying, Abba Father. So if you think about that, what is the most fundamental relational dynamic in the inner life of God is paternity and filiation inspiration. The father begets the son and the father and son breathe out the spirit. And there is in the work of the gospel, there is a creaturely economic way in which we in some creaturely manner participate in that inner life. We are incorporated into sonship, which is like, that is unbelievable. We're brought into the ocean of God's infinite triune self-happiness. And so, yeah, I think the beatific vision is helpful because it can bring some balance and really round out our view of salvation without taking anything away from penal substitutionary atonement, all those forensic categories. They absolutely need to be there, but also recognizing that the thing that all of that mechanism of the legal machine of the gospel eventuates in is happiness, is deep intimate communion, beatific happiness with God forever in increasing measure. We can maybe talk about that a little bit later, but I just think that's such so much of a fuller vision of what it means for God to save us than to have it just simply one dimensional in terms of guilt and innocence. Yeah. And it probably goes, and so I have a couple of follow-up questions on that. Number one, I'm wondering, when did we stop thinking of it like this? So I've done most of my work in the Old Testament and Old Testament is sort of, you almost have to think about God's presence. I mean, everything from the Levitical laws, which are maintaining sacred space and allowing Israel to be in the presence of God to just the temple itself, the echoes of that in creation. You've got all these different aspects. Some of the Psalms that you already referenced, right? Like there's a desire of these people to be in God's presence and to be barred from God's presence is the worst possible thing that can happen, right? You see that even in Jonah's little Psalm, like when he's going down to the depths and what he's lamenting is that I can't be in God's presence. I can't be at the temple. And so in the Old Testament, this feels like it's much more prominent in the New Testament, or it seems like we've emphasized it more in the Old Testament, but I would argue that it's there in the New Testament as well. I mean, it's hard to read through Hebrews and not see the renewed access, where we don't have to offer sacrifices, but we have this access. So it's still there. And so I guess I'm wondering, what causes the beatific vision to sort of fade to the background in biblical and theological studies in favor of maybe other things? Is it just sort of a, hey, we've done this, been there, done that. We need to do new things. Or is it something more pernicious than that? Yeah, well, that question is really difficult to answer. Let me just intensify it a little bit by affirming that, yeah, I think it absolutely is there in the New Testament. In some ways, it's expanded and democratized, right? You have this situation where in Ezekiel, the glory of Yahweh departs from the temple. And then you have after exile, the Israelites under the declaration of Cyrus are sent back to rebuild the temple and then eventually to rebuild the temple wall. So you have that whole dynamic in Ezra and Nehemiah. And Ezra and Nehemiah is just one anti-climactic buildup and then disappointment after another, where you have in Ezra 3, the foundations of the temple are laid. And this is where they think that the glory of Yahweh that departed all the way back in Ezekiel is now going to return. And then it doesn't. And they're weeping and they're crying because, hey, this isn't, you know, it's not how it turned out. And then Nehemiah, 70 years later, he builds the wall and it's glorious. And they sort of, they bring the Levites and they have their little celebration, their victory lap around the temple wall. And then he leaves. He doesn't even tell us how long he leaves when he goes back to Susa. And then he comes back and already the walls are in this disarray and it's really, you know, frustrating. And then the glory of Yahweh does eventually return in the person of Jesus Christ. So he becomes this new, he is Jacob's ladder, that language in John 1, where he's, you know, he is the meeting place. He is the Jacob's ladder. He is the temple that is going to be destroyed and then rebuilt three days later. And so now the father is seeking such people to worship him who will worship him in spirit and in truth. It's, it's all people can have access to. So the access, you're right. The book of Hebrews is totally everywhere. It's the access point to come into the Holy of Holies is democratized because now it is an access that we have. We don't have to take a pilgrimage to go somewhere. We can get there directly right now by faith through Christ. So there, there, all that to say, there's no excuse for us. You know, even if we say, Hey, we're, we're new Testament Christians. We love the Bible. You know, we love, we should still be, we should still be sort of clinging to these things. And so in terms of what happened, I mean, there's a number, there's a number of things. I think identifying sort of mono-causal answers is always, you know, suspect, but you can, you can, you can, yeah, you can, I mean, you can name a number of things. You can sort of the, the big macro thing that I, that I would want to blame is just enlightenment modernism. You know, it's this sort of tendency to dislodge ourselves from the past. So this is a, this doctrine is a classical doctrine. It's part of our heritage as Protestants. It's part of the reformed heritage. It's part of the medieval Western heritage. It's part of the medieval Eastern heritage. It's part of the early church heritage. So, so this doctrine is a doctrine that is truly ours. And you have with the enlightenment, you know, Immanuel Kant's essay, What is Enlightenment? He really incentivizes cutting yourself off from all things, you know, from any, anything that anybody tells you and you kind of have to rebuild everything from scratch. And so, you know, the two sides, I kind of, in a cheeky way in the book, I kind of call

liberal, higher critical liberalism, and fundamentalist Biblicism, two twin sisters that are both born out of the Enlightenment because both of them kind of have this, they're not approaching the biblical text in the same way that Christians of yesteryear approached them. They're approaching them with the modern metaphysic and with the modern assumptions. So I think that's one thing. Another thing is that in popular... So partly as a result of that, popular conceptions of heaven and the afterlife become really truncated and trite and just kind of silly, you know. So if you read N.T. Wright's book, Surprised by Hope, I remember reading that book and being surprised by how unsurprised I was as I read it. Just thinking like, this is weird that he feels like he needs to, like this is a groundbreaking thing that, hey, the hope of heaven is not for you to die and then sprout angels' wings and float up into heaven, but the hope of heaven is for a new heavens and the new earth. But, you know, I've been chastised a little bit as I thought about that because part of the reason why it's so natural to me is that I'm living in a post-N.T. Wright world where that pendulum was in part swung back by figures like N.T. Wright to sort of say, hey, the hope of the new heavens and the new earth is very earthly. God's recreating the cosmos in the eschaton. That's what we're looking forward to. But, you know, so all that to say, you have this weird... Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free Retirement Defense Guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. Weird, sort of ethereal vision of heaven where we think that heaven is almost like more boring than life on this earth and it's populated by chubby cherubs with tiny wings sitting on clouds and playing harps or, you know, just a weird sort of renaissance art, you know, illustrating these things. And then, but then you have someone like N.T. Wright and then, and then, you know, not N.T. Wright's world, but even as Michael Allen points out in his book, Grounded in Heaven, even some circles in the Dutch Reformed world sort of wanting to swing that pendulum back and sort of say, hey, no, the eschaton is all about new creation. But what Allen points out in his book, Grounded in Heaven, is that in some cases they swing the pendulum too far back so that any vestige of asceticism or the kind of perspective where it's appropriate for us to democratize our desires and put material desires lower than contemplative desires of communion with God, where, you know, the assumption that basically says that's gnostic, we want to get rid of that, it's all about new creation. Sometimes the new creation, the way that Allen talks about this is you can have a secular eschatology or a material eschatological materialism where the hope of the eschaton, we're talking about how it's basically earth 2.0, but there is no beatific vision there whatsoever. So anyways, all that to say, there's a lot of reasons. There's course corrections and, you know, overshooting the pendulum and that sort of thing. And I think just a general detachment from thinking about these theological issues with the testimony of the great tradition. And so sort of the need of the hour, I think, is to just kind of go back to our roots and to resource, find resources from within our own tradition to sort of say, you know, we don't have to reinvent the wheel. We can think about, we can sort of let Christians of yesteryear maybe show us some blind spots that we have today. And I think this is definitely one of them. Well, I would just add to that, because this is something I was thinking about as I read through your book and then I was prepping for the interview. And my thought kept going back to, I went to a dispensational school for my undergrad. And as I'm thinking about eschatology and I'm thinking about what was emphasized in the eschatological teaching that I initially received versus what I got a little bit later. It was primarily the, I'll call it the mapping of eschatology, which very much included in an earthly reign for Israel. Right. So there's an earth-based Jesus is coming back. He's going to reign. This is millennial kingdom stuff. Right. But there wasn't then a pushing beyond that, really. You kind of got stuck on the millennium. Right. And what happens after that? It's like, well, what happened? Well, you know, but then when I was introduced, so I got to study with, I had a couple of classes with Greg Beal, whose emphasis on the new creation is really, really strong. And so you start to see this sort of in a different light. And, you know, you're reading through Revelation 21, I think it's verse 22, where it talks about there is no temple for the Lord. The Lord God is the temple and the almighty land, you know. And so you're catching that, you know, that beatific vision a little bit more. And you're recognizing that, hey, this this new creation thing is actually the point. That's where we're headed. And so I think there might be some and I don't want to I know I'm with you 100 percent. I think there's multiple causes that we've kind of lost this emphasis, but I think there's been so much fervor around what I'll call mapping the eschaton. Right. And I think there's a place for that. I'm not I'm not saying we should never do it, but I do think that in mapping the eschaton and getting stuck on some of those basic features that we you know, when does the rapture happen? When do you know, is there going to be an earthly kingdom? Those kind of things. We've sort of lost the entire point of eschatology, which is to my mind, sort of. I don't know. Help us understand what we're doing right now. You know, what are we what are we looking for and how are we playing out that future in the present? And so I know you're doing a I know you're working on eschatology, so I'd just be interested for you to interact with. Yeah. Yeah, no, that I I like the way that you frame that because I think the attentive listener would have noticed that what you didn't say is that dispensationalism or any version of dispensationalism is incompatible with the beatific vision. Correct. And I think that's true. It's not incompatible with the beatific vision. I some of my colleagues are progressive dispensationalists, and we we have we have great fun interacting with one another. Actually, I think my the book that I'm writing on eschatology right now is greatly, greatly strengthened because of the the kind of iron sharpening iron conversations that I've had with some of my colleagues. But they love they loved the book. They they loved the beatific vision book. They they affirm the beatific vision. So there's nothing that is in dispensationalism per se that prevents you from affirming the beatific vision. I think I think that there are some features of the beatific vision that present problems for some considerations of dispensationalism. But I'll save that for another time. But, but I think you're right. Like, it's not, it's not an essential feature of your view of the millennium to prevent you from looking beyond the millennium to what whatever Revelation 20 is talking about is preparing you for. And I think that's the right, that's the right way to emphasize it. That basically, yeah, I, what I'm, what I'm writing right now that I am getting into the weeds of all of those different issues in the eschatology dogmatics book that I'm writing right now. But the thing that I'm really wanting to sort of sound as the, the primary note is just what you can call mere Christian eschatology, which should, which I'm arguing should include the beatific vision. I don't think that the beatific vision is some obscure, you know, doctrine that's only for nerds that like liturgy and, you know, that kind of thing, or maybe, you know, are not afraid to interact with Roman Catholic theologians or something like that. I think that it's, it is right there, part of, and by the way, I just, I forgot to mention this before, but evangelicals that get squeamish about language of like the beatific vision, who say, hey, that sounds kind of too Catholic.

I would just say, they are already primed and ready for the beatific vision. Because if they're listening to John Piper, and they're listening to him talk about Christian hedonism and how God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in him, and that the Christian life is about seeing and savoring Christ. If they're reading, if they're learning from Jonathan Edwards about how heaven is a world of love, they're reading from C.S. Lewis about how, you know, preferring a holiday at sea over, you know, mud pies in the slums, or however he put it in The Weight of Glory. We're all ready for the beatific vision. We just need to sort of connect the dots. But anyways, coming back to the millennium discussion, I do think that even though those issues are important, and really, they're important not because they're important in and of themselves, but because the biblical, theological, and hermeneutical framework that determines your view on the millennium also determines so much else about how you interpret the rest of the Bible. So I would say it's not that the millennium question itself is super important, but it's the tectonic plates underneath the millennium passage that are important. So, but even having said that, it's really important. And yet, none of us should say, wherever you land on the millennial discussion, none of us should say, this is the all-important issue of this, whether or not there is a temporary earthly kingdom of Christ before the eschaton and when that is. However you answer that question, none of us should say, that's what eschatology is about. Because eschatology is about, you know, as the Apostle's Creed says, I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the forgiveness of sins, the communion of saints, the resurrection of the body and the life everlasting. You know, that's what eschatology is about, the resurrection of the body and the life everlasting. So any sort of, I would say that doesn't necessarily determine which millennial position is right, but I would say that if there is a millennial position that is screaming at you to sort of avert your attention from those essential aspects of Christian eschatology, then that millennial position at the very least should be chastened. It doesn't mean that it's wrong necessarily, but it means that it should be disciplined and put in its proper place so that the primary things are primary. And yeah, I mentioned that prayer at the beginning, that Augustine prayer that has made us for thyself and our hearts are restless until they find the rest in thee. Well, eschatology is about how all of the cosmos can say that all of the saints as individuals can say that, but then the church collective and indeed the whole, all of creation as Romans 8, it's groaning. All of creation could say, God, you have made us for yourself and our hearts are restless until we find our rest in you. So that's what eschatology is about, the resurrection of the body and the life everlasting. So any sort of, I would say that doesn't necessarily determine which millennial position is right, but I would say that if there is a millennial position that is screaming at you to sort of avert your attention from those essential aspects of Christian eschatology, then that millennial position at the very least should be chastened. It doesn't mean that it's wrong necessarily, but it means that it should be disciplined and put in its proper place so that the primary things are primary. And yeah, I mentioned that prayer at the beginning, that Augustine prayers, thou hast made us for thyself and our hearts are restless until they find the rest in thee. Well, eschatology is about how all of the cosmos can say that all of the saints as individuals can say that, but then the church collective and indeed the whole, all of creation as Romans 8, it's groaning, all of creations could say, God, you have made us for yourself and our hearts are restless until we find our rest in you. So that's what eschatology is about, the resurrection of the body and the life everlasting. So any sort of, I would say that doesn't necessarily determine which millennial position is right, but I would say that if there is a millennial position that is screaming at you to sort of avert your attention from those essential aspects of Christian eschatology, then that millennial position at the very least should be chastened. It doesn't mean that it's wrong necessarily, but it means that it should be disciplined and put in its proper place so that the primary things are primary. And yeah, I mentioned that prayer at the beginning that Augustine prayers, thou hast made us for thyself and our hearts are restless until they find the rest in thee. Well, eschatology is about how all of the cosmos can say that all of the saints as individuals can say that, but then the church collective and indeed the whole, all of creation as Romans 8, it's groaning. All of creations could say, God, you have made us for yourself and our hearts are restless until we find our rest in you. So that's what eschatology is about, the resurrection of the body and the life everlasting. So any sort of, I would say that doesn't necessarily determine which millennial position is right, but I would say that if there is a millennial position that is screaming at you to sort of avert your attention from those essential aspects of Christian eschatology, then that millennial position at the very least should be chastened. It doesn't mean that it's wrong necessarily, but it means that it should be disciplined and put in its proper place so that the primary things are primary. And yeah, I mentioned that prayer at the beginning that Augustine prayers, thou hast made us for thyself and our hearts are restless until they find the rest in thee. Well, eschatology is about how all of the cosmos can say that all of the saints as individuals can say that, but then the church collective and indeed the whole, all of creation as Romans 8, it's groaning. All of creation could say, God, you have made us for yourself and our hearts are restless until we find our rest in you. So that's what eschatology is about, the resurrection of the body and the life everlasting. So any sort of, I would say that doesn't necessarily determine which millennial position is right, but I would say that if there is a millennial position that is screaming at you to sort of avert your attention from those essential aspects of Christian eschatology, then that millennial position at the very least should be chastened. It doesn't mean that it's wrong necessarily, but it means that it should be disciplined and put in its proper place so that the primary things are primary. And yeah, I mentioned that prayer at the beginning that Augustine prayers, thou hast made us for thyself and our hearts are restless until they find the rest in thee. Well, eschatology is about how all of the cosmos can say that, all of the saints as individuals can say that, but then the church collective and indeed the whole, all of creation as Romans 8, it's groaning. All of creation's could say, God, you have made us for yourself and our hearts are restless until we find our rest in you. So that's what eschatology is about, the resurrection of the body and the life everlasting. So any sort of, I would say that doesn't necessarily determine which millennial position is right, but I would say that if there is a millennial position that is screaming at you to sort of avert your attention from those essential aspects of Christian eschatology, then that millennial position at the very least should be chastened. It doesn't mean that it's wrong necessarily, but it means that it should be disciplined and put in its proper place so that the primary things are primary. And yeah, I mentioned that prayer at the beginning that Augustine prayers, thou hast made us for thyself and our hearts are restless until they find the rest in thee. Well, eschatology is about how all of the cosmos can say that, all of the saints as individuals can say that, but then the church collective and indeed the whole, all of creation as Romans 8, it's groaning. All of creations could say, God, you have made us for yourself and our hearts are restless until we find our rest in you. So that's what eschatology is about, the resurrection of the body and the life everlasting. So any sort of, I would say that doesn't necessarily determine which millennial position is right, but I would say that if there is a millennial position that is screaming at you to sort of avert your attention from those essential aspects of Christian eschatology, then that millennial position at the very least should be chastened. It doesn't mean that it's wrong necessarily, but it means that it should be disciplined and put in its proper place so that the primary things are primary. And yeah, I mentioned that prayer at the beginning that Augustine prayers, thou hast made us for thyself and our hearts are restless until they find the rest in thee. Well, eschatology is about how all of the cosmos can say that. All of the saints as individuals can say that, but then the church collective and indeed the whole, all of creation as Romans 8, it's groaning. All of creations could say, God, you have made us for yourself and our hearts are restless until we find our rest in you. So that's what eschatology is about, the resurrection of the body and the life everlasting. So any sort of, I would say that doesn't necessarily determine which millennial position is right, but I would say that if there is a millennial position that is screaming at you to sort of avert your attention from those essential aspects of Christian eschatology, then that millennial position at the very least should be chastened. It doesn't mean that it's wrong necessarily, but it means that it

on what they had, and then they also get more in the eschaton. And so, so there's something to say about the fact that even in this life, God in his good pleasure providentially gives differing degrees of, of, he gives different gifts. He's not, he's not egalitarian in the way that he gives out gifts. There are, you know, Paul talks about this, that not every part of the body is the same. We have different roles. We have different functions. And at our best, so, so this is how, how do we think about that in the, in the life to come? Well, this is where, this is one of those few areas in terms of the beatific vision where the Roman Catholics and Protestants diverge, I think appropriately, where Roman Catholics will say, okay, if you're asking the question, what accounts, we all, we agree that about the basics of what the beatific vision is, and we agree that the experience of the beatific vision will be experienced with differing degrees of blessedness. But the, on the question of what accounts for those differing degrees, Roman Catholics will say it's merit. Your merit determines the different degrees of blessedness that you have. Whereas Protestants will come, like Francis Turton, for example, he, he responds to Aquinas directly in his Atlantic Institutes of Atlantic theology. And he says, no, it's not merit because the only merit to speak of in the eschaton is the merit of Christ imputed to us by faith. So it's not merit. And so his answer for it is exactly what I just said. In the same way that God sees fit to be discriminant in his blessings in this life, he will see fit to be discriminant on our blessings in the next life. Now we hear that and we think, that doesn't sound good. But we, we only think that because we're thinking about the, God's discriminate gifts of blessing to people in our experience of that, which is in a fallen world where we are still wracked with sinful impulses and jealousies and resentment and all of those things. But we have glimpses of this in this life where, like, we can look at our experiences at our very best and, you know, at your very best when you see somebody who is profoundly gifted, more gifted than you are in every way. At your worst, you look at that and it's just bitter resentment. It's jealousy. It's like, ugh, why do they, you know, I feel like they are getting what I deserve or something like that. But at your best, you think, praise God for that person. I'm glad that they are here with the gifts that God has given them because they are enriching the body. I am enriched by their, by their blessing. And then likewise, at our very best, at our very worst, when we look at somebody else who is, who just can't get their act together, you know, maybe somebody who's struggling with a particular sin that we've experienced victory from and it doesn't seem like they're taking our advice and that sort of thing. At our very worst, we're going to look at that person and say, uh, and just be prideful and, you know, kind of say, get your act together. I got mine together. But at our best, we're going to look at the differing degrees of blessedness of that person and we're going to be, we're going to celebrate and enjoy as our personal win whenever they get the tiniest steps of obedience, like the, the tiniest win we will celebrate and, and be enriched by. So in the new heavens and the new earth, when we're experiencing the beatific vision, we will, we will obey the law of love perfectly. Both, both aspects of it. We will love the Lord, our God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength. And we will love our neighbor as ourselves. And so that means that the differing degrees of blessedness in the eschaton will only and always occasion more experiences of joy and happiness in the new heavens and the new earth because we're only experiencing those differing degrees of blessedness as we're perfectly obeying the law of love. So it will really be like this. It will be like, if you think about it like on a metaphor where, where all steadily sort of moving further up and further in to Aslan's country, you know, we're going further up and further in to the beat, to experiencing the beatific vision. And in that moment, I will be in the experience of the beatific vision. I will be maximized in my joy and ever increasing in my capacity for joy and ever full with to the brim of, of joy. So I'm just like as happy as can be. And I'll look up ahead of me as somebody who is further up the mountain than me. And my joy will be doubled because I love my neighbor as I love myself. And the fact that they're higher up on the mountain will occasion my joy. And then I'll look behind me and I'll see somebody else who's, who's lower on the mountain. And as they're climbing up, my joy will be now quadrupled because I'm going to love my neighbor as I love myself. And I'm happy about the fact that they are also on the mountain with me and we're steadily moving up. So basically all that to say, no one will be unhappy. No one will be unsatisfied with whatever, quote unquote, differing degrees of blessedness that we have. Whatever differences there are in the new heavens and the new earth will only occasion a greater degree of enjoyment of the beatific vision. It's really interesting to think about that where I have two thoughts and I'll try to share them real quick because I know we're kind of getting toward the end of the episode here. But number one, it just strikes me that this is what Paul is advocating when he uses the analogy of the body to encourage the Corinthians to, you know, if you're an ear, don't wish you were an eye. If you're an eye, don't wish you were a hand. Be the, and I'll use the term structure that you are, right? Live contentedly as what God has made you into and don't seek to be something that you're not. And there's an interesting concept. It's Alicia Rwer Gero. I'm going to butcher that name. She wrote a book called Context Changes Everything. And what she argues is that you have these sort of causal mechanisms, sort of billiards ball, billiard balls hitting each other, right? And so there's an equal and opposite reaction. That's what we think of as cause and effect. But then she argues that there are also constraints. And what she means by constraints are like, we can have this conversation because there are enabling constraints. We share a language and that language makes sense. It has logical rules. And what it does is it enables us to have this conversation through the constraint of language. Neither of us can hope to have an intelligible conversation if we start speaking gibberish, right? But then there's also, I think she calls them selective constraints. And those selective constraints are, let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. Things that narrow possibility, they sort of hone us in and sort of limit us in ways that are also important. And so as you're talking there, that sort of comes to mind because there's a sense in which the structure that we are, right? I don't want to take the body metaphor too far, but who we are, who God has created us to be, that's who we are supposed to be. And right now, our real limit to joy has nothing to do with me being an ear and you being an eye, right? It doesn't have to do with that intrinsic body part sort of idea. It has to do with sin. It has to do with the sin that keeps me from loving being an ear and recognizing the great contributions I can make. And so it's just such a fascinating, you know, when we really dissect it a little bit, it makes perfect sense that we won't be uniform in heaven because we're not uniform here. What we're going to end up being, and I kind of hate to say it like this, not the best versions of ourselves. That's not quite what I mean, but that's sort of, I think, what it ends up being. It's like we have such a deep appreciation now, not only for who God has made us to be, who God is, and then also who everyone else is. Yes, absolutely. And that's sort of the, I think that's the picture you're painting. Yeah. No, well said. I like that. Yeah, it's just that to me is a fascinating thought. It sort of brings a lot together that I've been thinking about anyway. So I really appreciate that, man. Hey, we're getting toward the end of the episode, and I usually like to end it with one question that I ask every guest.

What do you think the church should be doing, thinking about, to be and make more faithful disciples today? You can relate it to the beatific vision. You can relate to whatever you want to do, man. This is totally off the cuff. Whatever you'd like to say is great, and I know it can't just be one thing, but you've got to have some sort of direction, right? No, that's helpful. You gave me the question ahead of time before we started recording. I did. And so I really have no excuse for the fact that I'm, I'm a, it's not, I don't have a lightning bolt of, you know, inspiration for what, what should, I should answer, but I would, I think as you were asking that question, the thing that stands out was the last word that you used, faithfully. I think that, one of the things that pastors and churches can, can struggle with is the pressure to be and to do things that the church is never designed to be and to do. Like too much, the pastors, you know, especially in today's day and age, can take too much upon themselves, and they can, they, you know, they think that they have to be an expert in everything. You've got to be a therapist. You've got to be a politician. You've got to be a, you know, you have to be everything. You have to be a flawless philosopher. You know, you have to be a scientist. You've got to be, you have to be everything as a pastor. And so I think, I think that there is a certain level of simplicity to being a Christian. It's not, it's not simple in the sense that there's no tough questions and difficult things that we have to work through and issues of wisdom that we have to tap into. But there is a certain simplicity in terms of understanding that our goal in this life and in the life to come is deeper communion with God. And I think that it's appropriate for us to basically continue regularly to come to his word and to come to his word with his people with that express goal in mind to, to increase in our communion with God. So for pastors in particular, you didn't ask the question for what pastors need to do, but I'm always thinking in terms of, you know, needs for pastors. But I think that one of the underrated virtues of pastoral ministry is confident patience to, to continue to sow the word of God by the spirit of God with the confidence that the word of God will do the work of God among the people of God and that that happens just continually, steadily over time. So, yeah, I mean, I could, there's all sorts of theological things that I want to sort of talk about and say, Hey, these are the theological issues that that are, you know, that's, that's under, that's neglected in the church today. And I probably could, you know, name a bunch that really are there. Right. But my encouragement is to just stay steady. You know, like in a world that is like completely unraveling, just sort of stay steady with this like laser like focus to recognize that you are, you, you exist to find your ultimate happiness in God. That, that, that that really is the Augustine is right. So I began with Augustine's prayer. We got to end with it. Thou has made us for thyself and our hearts are restless until they find their rest in thee. And this is a restless age all across the world. You know, I'm, I'm talking to you all the way from, from Abu Dhabi, but but I, I'm a, I'm an American, you know, and I'm, I'm a Westerner. So I'm paying attention to the things going on and, and in our nation. And it's wild. It's a restless time. And so it's a, it's a sweet reminder to say, okay, we are designed so that we will remain restless anywhere until we find our restlessness satiated in God. So I don't know if you can turn that if, if listeners can take that ramble into some sort of concise summary, maybe just say, read Augustine's prayer and the confessions chapter one. And then just, that's my answer. No, I love it, man. That's a great answer. And I think it's right on. I mean, we just get too activated over the chaos around us instead of recognizing that, look, we don't have to fix any or all of this. We may break it. You know, I like to think we'll probably leave the world more broken than it was when we found it in a lot of cases. But at the end of the day, our, our task is faithfulness. And that's what we need to hone in on. We're not going to find that rest that you're talking about in anything other than a deepening relationship with Jesus Christ. And so, yeah, fantastic advice. Stay steadfast, man. Thanks for being on the show. This is great. Yeah, thanks for having me. I really appreciate you being here. And I would absolutely, everybody, I recommend to gaze upon God. We'll have a link to it in the show notes. IVP has generously provided a 20% discount link, so check it out. Oh, nice. You can order it off the IVP site. And I just encourage you to get it. This is a really crucial topic, as you've heard us talk, and it's a fantastic book. So I just encourage you to pick it up from IVP at the link in the show description. And yeah, Samuel, really appreciate you being here. Thanks so much for the conversation and for the writing and the work that you do. Really appreciate it. Thank you. Thanks, man. Thanks for having me on. Absolutely. All right. Take care, everybody. And we'll catch you on the next episode of Thinking Christian. I just want to take a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you'll find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more. Hey, friends and faithful listeners. My name is Jen, the host of The Bible Explained. And I believe that reading the Bible shouldn't be a chore. It should be fun. Each weekday morning, you're going to hear me dive into scripture, sharing insights from cross-references, ancient history, and even Hebrew and Greek, all in a simple, approachable way to help you see the Bible like never before. Grab your coffee and join me on The Bible Explained, now available on lifeaudio.com and your favorite podcast app.